Problems With Fulda Control Monitor

[pblanksb]

I purchased Fulda this morning and have spent the whole day getting to grips with what is a thoroughly enjoyable sim, especially as a certain amount of learning is required because the panel operation is somewhat different to the previous sims. I also particularly like the feature where drivers waiting to relieve trains call to advise that they are waiting, it certainly does enhance the realism by making you look ahead to see where you can recess trains whose forward drivers have not yet arrived. I have come up against one or two problems, however, and I've listed them below.

1. Some of the Control Monitor 'Simple Commands' do not work for me, namely FRTG/RR to revoke a train route, SBA fleeting enable and SBE fleeting disable. I've tried every possible combination of letters, numbers, comma and full stop but without success.

2. I have two train routes that will not revoke using either the Control Monitor or the panel buttons. These are 298II - w132 and S3 - W248. This latter route I set in error with track 248 aleady occupied and even tough the signal has not cleared neither the route nor its overlap will revoke. I've noticed this happens in other sims too. I have saved the sim file but I can't see any means of attaching it to my post.

Aside from these problems this is an otherwise excellent sim so far and well worth the wait.

Regards,

Phil.

[pblanksb]

Reference my point 1. above, after trying one or two more ideas I've discovered that the SBA enable/SBE disable fleeting issue is a typo error on the Wiki page. It should read:-

SBE Enable fleeting

SBA Disable fleeing.

Regards,

Phil.

[signalsoftRC]

oops! Thanks Phil! I changed the wiki straight away. Nice typo...

FRTG works on the TARGET point of a route. (as you would press the end button of the route too).

Don't forget: S600 panels require you to press the HaGT BUTTON (not from the DET!) on the panel first for a route to be revokable.

Shunting routes don't require that. just FRTG will release the route... (dangerous!)

[pblanksb]

Hi Richard,

I have been using the HaGT panel button first and using the target point of the route (by this I presume you mean the exit signal number) but the FRTG and RR commands still do not work for me, with either shunt or main routes. I just get the '???' on the end of the command line after entering a command. Routes will also not revoke using the FHTG panel buttons.

Regards,

Phil.

[TjoeTjoe]

Phil, ehat do you actually enter into the DET when revoking a route?

Anyway, I do see some conflicting info in the Wiki in relation to what Richard says.

The Wiki lists the HS command that could be used to set a signal to Stop (same as HaGT)

I am not a fan of the DET - pressing a single button on the panel works faster for me - so never tried route revoking over DET myself.

Anyway I think you only have to enter FRGT,W248 for example. So just the target's signal button id. Not the full route.

[TjoeTjoe]

Ok, Phil.

I just saw your post in the German forum.

You are trying to revoke a TRAIN route!

That can not be done over DET. For that you must press the buttons on the panel.

FRTG or RR is for shunt routes.

(Will remove train route from the wiki page, and change that to shunt route)

[pblanksb]

I have just been trying various scenarios with regard to revoking routes.

1. O252 - Z3 works with DET using RR,Z3.

2. S3 - W248 with 3 and 248 occupied (train route set in error), unable to revoke with either panel buttons or DET.

3. S3 - W248 with 3 unoccupied and 248 occupied (train route set to test if I'd set it in error), route revokes with DET 'RR,W248' but will not revoke with panel buttons.

4. Shunt route 298II - 402II (when route set shows as set to w132) will not revoke with any method.

5. Shunt route 348II - 298II revokes with 'RR,298II' input into DET.

There doesn't appear to be any pattern to what routes will/will not revoke with either panel buttons or DET input. Some will with one method, but not another, some will with either method, and in certain circumstances some will not with either method. After finding myself unable to cancel the route from 298II to 402 (w132) or from S3 to W248 with a train standing at S3 I had no option but to restart the sim.

I hope this makes sense and is of use in any follow-up.

I originally followed the Wiki as it said FRTG or RR revokes a complete TRAIN route, just following instructions!

Regards,

Phil.

[JulianG]

Have you tried the group buttons "FHTE" (Fahrstraßenhilfstaste Einzelauflösung) and "FRTE" (Fahrstraßenrücknahmetaste Einzelauflösung)?

These are for cancelling a single element of a set route. Use FRTE on a yellow illuiminated switch and it will revoke the fixing.

FHTE is only for revoking single elements of train routes and not for shunting routes. If a train route is just partly set on a shunting security level, FRTE will also do.

[pblanksb]

I can't get FHTE or FRTE to work for me.

[Helmut]

Hi Phil,

first of all, FRGT or RR only revokes a shunting route, not a train route. That is a mistake in the Wiki. To revoke a train route you always have to use the FHTG on the panel.

Now to your problems in detail:

1. I cannot revoke the train route O252 - Z3 by DET, only by using the FHTG on the panel. Maybe you have set a shunting route. If you use the DET and put "-" between the two signals then a shunting route is set.
2. It is really possible to set a train route S3.W248. That is of course a bug. It seems that the sytems takes it as shunting route. Therefore it is possible to revoke it by RR. This is wrong.
3. To revoke this route by the buttons on the panel you have to normally should use the FHTG in button field below the Gbf. But this doesn't work in this case because the system seems ti see the route as shunting route. and to revoke that there should be a button FRTG in this field, but it isn't. If you use this button in the group button panel (G) it works. But anyway this is a bug.
4. As there is no signal 402II it may be that the DET cannot deal with it correctly. It is also not possible by using the FRTG in the group button panel. But you can revoke it by using the FRTE (blue) in the button field below the Gbf. You have to to it on both switches.
5. This is correct. If there would be a FRTG button in the button field below the Gbf you should work with this, too. With the group button panel it works.

Regards

Helmut

[JulianG]

If we could use the hyphen "-" to mark shunting routes and the dot "." to mark train routes, everything would be easier.

• I cannot revoke the train route O252 - Z3 by DET, only by using the FHTG on the panel.

This is the correct behaviour.

2. It is really possible to set a train route S3.W248.

Yes, why shouldn't it? Works perfectly with "S3.W248" and also with "S3-W248".

Revoking "S3.W248" will only be possible with FHTG and "S3-W248" should be revokable with "HS,S3" and "RR,W248".

3. To revoke this route by the buttons on the panel you have to normally should use the FHTG in button field below the Gbf. But this doesn't work in this case because the system seems ti see the route as shunting route. and to revoke that there should be a button FRTG in this field, but it isn't. If you use this button in the group button panel (G) it works. But anyway this is a bug.

It works for me. Press Pbf HaGT first and then revoke route with Gbf FHTG.

The group button area below track 259/270 will be for Hünfeld.

I suppose, Bft Gbf does not have a FRTG, because shunting routes can be revoked using the DET.

FRTG is often missing on the panel. If you need to revoke a route by hand on the panel, you will have to use FRTE.

There may be a bug, because only the Pbf FRTE works for "S3-W253".

4. As there is no signal 402II it may be that the DET cannot deal with it correctly. It is also not possible by using the FRTG in the group button panel. But you can revoke it by using the FRTE (blue) in the button field below the Gbf. You have to to it on both switches.

This may be a bug, revoking this route only works with FRTE, neither "RR,402II" nor Pbf FRTG and target button 402ii works.

As I'm testing with the latest BETA version, I can't see, whether there have been any bugs in the public version, so treat my advices with caution.

Julian

E: Quotation function is killing me. I don't know how to get this in shape. You will see, what I mean.

Edited February 25, 2015 by TjoeTjoe
Fixed quotation issues ;-)

[Helmut]

Hi Julian,

please read my comments in combination with Phil's entry #7

2.

Yes, why shouldn't it? Works perfectly with "S3.W248" and also with "S3-W248".

Revoking "S3.W248" will only be possible with FHTG and "S3-W248" should be revokable with "HS,S3" and "RR,W248".

Because in our case 248 is occupied by a train.

[JulianG]

Tested it now with a train occupying 247.

Route comes in, switches will be set and locked, but with no route lock indicator (Festlegemelder) and thus no proceed indicator, so its security level is basically on shunting route level.

(You may experience this certain situation, when a track is falsely shown as occupied, but you call a route into that track to pull Zs1.)

So revoking the route with "RR,W247" works for me, also the D-Weg will be revoked.

If the incoming of the route won't finish, because switches are locked or occupied, you will have to revoke every single element with FRTE.

[Helmut]

So revoking the route with "RR,W247" works for me, also the D-Weg will be revoked.

Yes, that is what I've said, too. But Phil said, that he could not remove the route by the buttons on the panel. So I told him that this was correct, because there is no FRTG in the button field below the Gbf.

If the incoming of the route won't finish, because switches are locked or occupied, you will have to revoke every single element with FRTE.

Of course you can choose this option. But the route also can be revoked in total by the FRTG. You only have to use that one on the in the group button panel (G), because there is none in the respective field.

And the problem that Phil seemed to have is that he was trying it by FHTG.

But anyway, the Sims works correct in all these cases, only some buttons are missing.

[signalsoftRC]

Phil, to explain some basics:

train routes run in as shunt routes first with simple basic route integrity checks

when a pile of conditions are fulfilled, the safety level gets set up to train level. On the panel this is NOT visible as a difference...

1 If something of that pile of conditions is not right, the process is aborted, the route will never come to train level.

2 if you want still a train route, you must call the route again.

3 If you dont want the route, FRTG releases the route as a whole.

In cases where half of the route came to train level, only FRTE and/or FHTE will work, depending on the safety level of that element.

Be very carefull to set routes that are likely to fail. The rules require you to check if the whole route, flank protection and overlap will succeed, before you attempt to set a route. Dont do try and error there, like you can do in the UK or in the NL. This means you need to know all those overlaps by heart....

So yes, if you set a route into a track that is occupied, the shunt level will run in, but the route wil fail and "hang"!

You can set a route into occupied track ONLY if the last track of the route is a block section.

Shunting route release is possible from the DET. If you don't know the button's exact name, mouseover it. It shows the name at the title bar.

Revoking a train route, must be done from the panel.

[pblanksb]

I have read all of your subsequent posts and tried to revoke these routes in the ways you describe but without success.

I have saved the sim with the two routes I am unable to revoke. Is there any way I can upload the saved sim file to the forum and have one or two of you try and revoke the routes and then explain to me what you did to achieve it, because right now I am baffled as to why all the things some of you are trying work for you but not for me.

Phil.

[TjoeTjoe]

Uploading files to the forums is not possible.

You could consider sending to the e-mail as provided in the manual (pdf) which can be found in the "de"-folder of your Fulda installation.

I will also drop you my e-mail address via a PM, so when time allows me, I could have a look at your problem.

[pblanksb]

Thank you all for trying to assist me with your replies.

Erwin (Tjoe Tjoe) has kindly supplied me with his email address to allow me to send him a saved sim file with the routes I cannot revoke, so hopefully he will be able to address the problems, which in some part at least are probably down to my inexperience with this type of panel and the different ways of working from the Sp Dr s59 and S60 panels. I do think German panels are much more complicated to operate than British panels, where generally speaking simply pulling the entrance button cancels a route!

Thanks again,

Phil

[TjoeTjoe]

Well, the German interlocking philosophy is indeed much more complicated compared to the British and Dutch interlocking philosophy.
And yes, it is sometimes very difficult to understand why something does not (want to) work.

One could make his life a bit easier by training himself by starting the sim with the -notrains option . Keeps your panel empty (except for the stabled trains and pre-spawned trains, but even that can be switched off under settings)

Then you won't have the stress of all this trains coming in and wanting to depart. See Wiki - Command Line Options

Anyway, I will see what happend in your simulation. Will get back to you

[TjoeTjoe]

OK. For revoking the route from S3 towards W248, where track was already oocupied.

As Richard stated, the panel does not tell you at which safety level the various elements of the route set are

The procedure is:

0. Press HaGT at the start signal

1. Try revoking the entire route with FRGT

2. Try revoking the entire route with FHGT

3. Try revoking parts of the route with FRTE

4. Try revoking parts of the route with FHTE

In this case, the elements between switch 220 and 229 where at shunt route safety level, and can be revoked using FRTE

All other route parts to be revoked with FHTE

The route from 298II to 402II can be revoked using FRTE.

Do not quite understand why that can not be done by using the DET or pressing FRTG + 402II

[Helmut]

Do not quite understand why that can not be done by using the DET or pressing FRTG + 402II

As I learned the reason is that 402II is no signal (button) but only a button to set the route. But to revoke a complete route you have to use FRTG with the target signal button.

[TjoeTjoe]

Well, as far as I know exit buttons are also signal buttons for the purpose of route revoking.

But where I expected to be able to revoke the shunt route completely with FRTG, and that did not work.

So confused here

[pblanksb]

Hi Erwin,

Thank you for your reply, and your explanation of the order in which to try the different route revoke buttons.

I managed to revoke route 298II to 402II using HaGT then FRTE+Switch 130 and FRTE+Switch 147.

Route S3 - W248 also revoked using FRTE with all parts of the route except the overlap beyond W248 signal through Switch 133. For this I had to use FHTE+Switch 133.

Many thanks for your time and patience in explaining the revoke process so clearly to me.

Regards,

Phil.

PS. Richard stated in his earlier post that to revoke a train route must be done from the panel, so in this case the dispatcher has to leave his desk, walk over to the panel and physically operate the panel buttons to cancel a route?

[TjoeTjoe]

PS. Richard stated in his earlier post that to revoke a train route must be done from the panel, so in this case the dispatcher has to leave his desk, walk over to the panel and physically operate the panel buttons to cancel a route?

YES !

As it is another hurdle - read: moment of consideration - for route revoking.

Route revoking is mostly subject to written logging