Sperrsignale W38 W36 and 21R2

[TjoeTjoe]

Succeeding my attempts to create a first scenario for KKAS (which is now published as beta,) I do have a question regarding the Sperrsignale.

Initially I created the scenario wit a defect train at track 001. Actually I wanted to rescue the train out of track 001 into direction of Brühl, but I did not see anyway to setup shunt movements on the Brühl-side.

1. It seems like you can not send a train to the open line track Brühl->Hürth as a shunt movement, and get it back in from there (supposing that there could be a Ra 10 overthere. On the other hand, the main signal F is not equiped with a Sperrsignale either. Pretty confused here.

What's the procedure for shunt movements from that location. Applying Ersatzsignal Zs 1?

2. How to set shunt routes starting at Sperrsignale W38 W36 and 21R2 (see picture, the ones inside the yellow boxes)?

There is no end RT button to set a shunt route from these signals towards the open line to/from Brühl.

Hope someone can give me clue

Thanks

Erwin

[signalsoftRC]

you can only set a route TO those signals. There is no endbutton to go beyond that signal with a route.

In case shunting is needed beyond that signal, you must issue an authority to pass the signal.

Shunting movements beyond those signals are extremely rare. (no time and there is an alternative via the north side)

On the real signal box, you also have no buttons there. (it's an older type of panels! and was a pretty normal practice in the beginning of those panels)

You'll notice that in Bonn-Bad Godesberg there are much more of those situations.

[TjoeTjoe]

you can only set a route TO those signals. There is no endbutton to go beyond that signal with a route.

In case shunting is needed beyond that signal, you must issue an authority to pass the signal.

Shunting movements beyond those signals are extremely rare. (no time and there is an alternative via the north side)

On the real signal box, you also have no buttons there. (it's an older type of panels! and was a pretty normal practice in the beginning of those panels)

You'll notice that in Bonn-Bad Godesberg there are much more of those situations.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

By the way, the above was not meant to suggest that something was wrong/missing on the panel. Just wondering how this could work.

The only remaining thing that I don't understand here is why there is/used to be a Sperrsignal W36.

All other "tracks" with Sperrsignals facing towards Brühl also have a Sperrsignal facing towards the station (i.e. W33 and W38)

Sperrsignal W36 looks like an "orphan". You can shunt out towards there, but no shunt route from a Sperrsignal there backwards into the station/yard.

That was actually the second alternative I was looking for whilst initially creating the scenario for a rescue from track 001 (instead of shunting onto the open main line)

Erwin

[michaels]

I think the question is why there are Sperrsignale at all. A Ra 10 would suffice, as the only possibility to go beyond the signals is a written order, and in this case the signals would stay at Hp 0. And I assume that Ra 10 panels are much cheaper than Sperrsignale

[TjoeTjoe]

I think the question is why there are Sperrsignale at all. A Ra 10 would suffice, as the only possibility to go beyond the signals is a written order, and in this case the signals would stay at Hp 0. And I assume that Ra 10 panels are much cheaper than Sperrsignale

For those Sperrsignals facing towards Brühl that could be a logical question (why) and asnwer (Ra 10), but the fact that they are there in reality.

As far as I have understood, the Ra 10 signals only indicate the boundaries of the shunt area. So if it would have possible to shunt out on to the mainline, with ie Sperrsig W38, then the Ra 10 would be the easy and cheap way to tell the driver "Stop not any further"

But for the movement back in, and let's limit it to my question with respect the track where we find W36. A Ra 10 won't help for the movement into the station. Logically you would need another Sperrsignal which is obviously not there.

Maybe it just done by written order (sim-wise a Rangierauftrage) to pull up into track 001 or something like that

Erwin

[signalsoftRC]

Your logic is based on Dutch operations. Shunting in Germany does NOT follow simple safety standards as in the Netherlands. There is no signal needed to return from the mainline. Just an ordinary oral message suffices.

[michaels]

But for the movement back in, and let's limit it to my question with respect the track where we find W36. A Ra 10 won't help for the movement into the station. Logically you would need another Sperrsignal which is obviously not there.

Erwin

Yes, I didn't intend to address this one with my above post. Just asked myself why one would not exchange those three signals with Ra 10. Seems like this question will stay unanswered

[signalsoftRC]

Also has to do with the flank protection requirements...

If those signals would NOT be there, the flank protection is searched further out... An Ra 10 is NOT valid for flank protection.

[TjoeTjoe]

Your logic is based on Dutch operations.

Now you got me.

Clear enough. Thanks for the explanation.

Erwin